I think in cases where someone is distressed enough about it then yes it does require a cure. There are all types of gender variation. Some people aren't affected to such a degree that they feel they must be cured of their dysphoria and that's fine. I however am incredibly distressed by it and will seek a cure and as a result won't be varying much from the gender binary that the general public seem to follow. Not saying the binary is correct but I'm just one of those people who are sat very squarely in the female side of it.

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Hellfrozeover be a pirate and a Transgenderzone moderator.

I don't stand under the TG umbrella anymore, it's way too bitchy and crowded in there but it's sunny out here

If we decide that gender variation is a "mental disorder" then we would seem to have little rational basis for trusting the very thoughts and feelings on which claims of gender identity are so often based.

I think it's a physical disorder in the cases of transsexuals who feel they have to change actually. Nothing wrong mentally.

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Hellfrozeover be a pirate and a Transgenderzone moderator.

I don't stand under the TG umbrella anymore, it's way too bitchy and crowded in there but it's sunny out here

Suggesting that Dysphoria is an illness doesn't mean it is a mental one, last time I checked the current official medical opinion is that it isn't a mental illness.

I don't see the problem with saying it is an illness that needs curing, someone very close to me has an illness that can't be cured and has to make her way through a largely unhelpful world. However she doesn't like to make a song and dance about it and tries to live a life as close to normality as possible. Stealth disability almost, is that also wrong?

I like the way you put that Megan. I have to say, I agree with that. Your friend should be applauded, not criticised for being quiet about it. Getting on with it is the best policy and yes it does require some effort to do so.

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Hellfrozeover be a pirate and a Transgenderzone moderator.

I don't stand under the TG umbrella anymore, it's way too bitchy and crowded in there but it's sunny out here

get by as successfully as you can for tomorrow you could be dead

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Man [...] must count no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth." (Jean Paul Sartre, 1943)

this argument, as always, seems to turn into an either / or debate though.

the problem with saying 'i have to pass and be seen as a woman after transition!' is that, sometimes, you're going to be clocked as trans. it's going to happen. for most people there is nothing you can do about it. the preoccupation with passing, in my mind, suggests that if you do get clocked you've somehow failed. which is nonsense. you've just been clocked. s'all.

i mean, i pass. okay, i can be laise faire about not giving a damn about my appearance, because generally i don't need to. i'm even kinda cute. sometimes i wind up snogging boys, which is nice, but, there is enough about me to out me though, whether it's my slightly weird voice, lumpy forehead, my kinda tenseness when all the women in the office are talking about periods because, damn, sore point there. *shrugs* if somebody looks close enough they can figure it out.

and, they don't need to, because where i live everybody knows. i can't live as a 'normal' female, no matter what i do, 'cause every bugger knows i'm trans. and, you know, that's okay. i don't need to make a big deal about it, because it isn't, but i don't need to preoccupy myself with nonsense like passing either. i just get up in the morning, do whatever i feel like, and fall out of the house. because it seems no matter what i do i'm a woman anyway, even when i'm having a real boyish day.

i know non-trans women who don't put any effort into trying to pass as women, and some who wind up not really passing as women. and, you know, who cares? if you want to look pretty, make yourself look pretty. if you can't be arsed, then whatever. if you're more into a disheveled girly appearance, like me, and you think the notion of passing for it's own sake is intensely vacuous then, well, we're probably going to get along.

it ain't about conforming, it's about having the balls to just get on with your life without worrying about other peoples expectations. i think the heads of most multinational corporations have a little bit of that individualistic fire in them, you know?

and, when it comes down to it, i agree with stella. i've had more than one friend turn round to me and say that watching me be an idiot and join bands and sing on stage and get tattoos and not give a damn if people clock me has given them impetus and strength. i'm sure as hell not a revolutionary though, i'm just being myself. and gender be damned.

just so happens, irrespective of my apparant non-conformity, i'm a chick.

oh, and before you nail me for being a freak. i can conform. i've got quite a few bits of paper to prove the fact.

who said you can't have your cake and eat it?

so.

I just dont want people to tell me that I'm so revoltingly ugly that I look like a man.
That really sums it up I think

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I look back at most of my life and think "WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING?!??"

Not all men are revoltingly ugly. I'm a fan of man myself ! I can see where you're coming from however and agree.

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Hellfrozeover be a pirate and a Transgenderzone moderator.

I don't stand under the TG umbrella anymore, it's way too bitchy and crowded in there but it's sunny out here

I simply want to be seen as a man I know I am, and I don't see anything wrong or stealthy in it.

Then again, I want it to come natural, first of all to myself, so I don't bind, I don't use any type of packies, I don't even wear obviously men's clothes simpy because I know my borders and I know I won't look more convinicing in them, I'll just look like on my way to a dress party.

In other words, I don't want anything unnatural on me, anything that get unwrapped, unstuck, untied, that a blow of wind can take away thus revealing bio-me to the world.

I am what I am and I do want to pass as convincing as I can, but I try to train my voice, walk, gestures, - that is, things that are part of me, that can become automatical and that can't be taken away from me.
If to take opposites, it's better to be seen "a man in skirt" by your behaviour than "a woman who poses as a man" that comes from plain looks.

For myself, I admit that if I ever transitioned, I'd do it for somebody, hardly for myself. I want people around to see me as I see myself and if they honestly can't do it because of my looks, well, the only way to succeed is to make a step towards them and change myself according to their ideas. Call it conformity, I'd call it a common sense. How could they know who I am if I did not give them any hints?
And taking into account that very often they fail to see it even with all hints I give them, the only way would be to cut off almost any relations with the outer world (my current policy) or to accept their binary game and participate in it, even if partly.

Back to the original question:

Passing for me:

Voice - mine is naturally rather low than high but it still is a giveaway.
If a single shot of T could fix it for me, I might go for it.

Chest FTM - as I said, I don't bind. I like feeling free and I like breathing freely. Luckily, I am not too large in this aspect (A, I guess) but I certainly want to be really flat.

Height - without any relation to the gender stuff, I'd love to be taller. I'm pathetically short: 162 cm or so.

Weight - No problem here. I am 50 kgs, what is either a bit underweighted or just skinny, but I am fine with it and I am really strong what makes a nice unexpected contrast to my looks and earn me quite a few surprised glances quite often

Beard FTM - don't want a beard, but a five o clock would be great.

Hair - I'm totally fine with what I have now.
Don't want body hair, don't want getting bald.

Adams Apple - luckily, looks like I have one and quite visible. Maybe it's gills though

Everything else is irrelevant, to me.

So the doctors all think we're nuts?

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I look back at most of my life and think "WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING?!??"