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**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

Postman was early this morning. Oh joy...

Prudential wrote:

26 September 2007

Dear Miss Bujman

Thank you for your letter of 12 September 2007.

As previously advised in our letter of 29 June 2006 and 5 September 2007, we are unable to alter our records to show your change in title until we receive your Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC). I can assure you that no offence is meant by this and that we are simply following of legislation.

Therefore, whilst we are aware you wish to be addressed as Miss I Bujman, until we see your GRC, it may be possible that you still receive correspondence incorrectly addressed, as we cannot update our records officially.

I have requested that any manual correspondence issued to you is addressed, as I am unable to intervene with system generated correspondence.

A prepaid envelope is enclosed for your use.

I hope you are satisfied with my response. If not, you may refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service and I have enclosed a leaflet showing their details. You have six months from the date of this letter to contact them. After this time, your complaint will not be considered by either the Financial Ombudsman or Prudential.

If you have any further questions or need any more information please contact us on 0845 640 2000 between 8am and 6pm Monday to Friday.

Yours sincerely

Tracy Harris
Head of Complaints

As I suspected, this is a matter of poor systems analysis and implementation. This is my métier. I may as well be God as far as they're concerned. And there will be thunderbolts. Vengeance is mine...

I will have some breakfast and calm down.

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**Becky** · Advisor Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Posts: 337 Location: Lancaster

As previously advised in our letter of 29 June 2006 and 5 September 2007, we are unable to alter our records to show your change in title until we receive your Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC). I can assure you that no offence is meant by this and that we are simply following of legislation. [quote]
I'm absolutely certain this is incorrect, I suppose if push came to shove you could always specify that you do not wish to have any honorific applied on letters addressed to you but that seems like giving in. Keep it up Reenie, make as much fuss as you can,start making noises about MPs, SMP, and any legal sources you can use Very Happy

.

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**Flameboy** · Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:55 pm Post subject:

I'm sure you already know this, Reenie, but as far as I'm aware, in the UK it's perfectly legal to use whatever title you want, as long as you're not ascribing qualifications to yourself that you don't have (e.g. Dr), and as long as it's not in order to perpetrate fraud. Absolutely nothing to do with having a GRC or even intending to undergo gender reassignment!

Go get 'em, Reenie! Twisted Evil

Dave

**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

Perfectly aware, Dave, and thank you for reminding the rest of us.

I've yet to investigate further but, aside from the criminal act of harassment (for which I could now involve the police), I believe there are implications under the Data Protection Act 1984 & 1998. They have a duty to record our data correctly. I believe that this may extend to the processing of said data.

I do hope so. A pincer movement would be so much nicer.

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**thefishkeeper** · Advisor Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Posts: 1487 Location: Reading

Reeni that is the same letter that I too recieved and they even called me over the phone. To explain.

They do not mean to be stubbon but at least they now place Mr on all my letters, they may still have my other details on the inside.

To be honest I can see their point, we have to produce a marrage sutificate or birth certificate, so why not one that gives us our birth right. At least now we can get one, just think that in the past no matter what we would have called our selves we would have still been the oposite.

They know that once they have our new birth certicifcate they have no reason to NOT change our details.

Not only that male and female pensions are different, just think of how many people out there would love to get one or the other, due to tax or age..or...what ever.

At least they are making an effort and puttting Miss on your letters. Yes you may get the odd Mr, I still get the odd Miss, but then so do my neighbours, they too get Mr and believe me they are all woman, as you are too.

Give them a chance Reeni, but remember that some letters have been all ready done type thing and still may have Mr on them.

Any way thats my 50 cents worth.

Wink

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Arya · Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 124

Im going to assume that their reasoning is the same as where i work [Somerfield]. Somerfield wanted me to show a letter saying that this change was prmanent, so that they could change the M on my work profile to an F - as without that 1 leter / state they can't choose from the female titles.

Especially as it's pensions, like TFK said, they cant just give you female status without the proper letters as it would mean you'd get a different pension rate which as you havent got the letters to state.. you could always change your mind after you change details with them to Female.

Don't get so beat up over it all just a company with a standard computer system, they've even explained why though couldnt do it!

**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

I'm not getting beat up over it, but the prudential might...

They, like all other organisations, have a duty to ensure that the information that they hold about individuals is accurate and up to date. They also have a duty to ensure that any processing that is carried out is done so correctly.

There are specific points within the Data Protection Act 1998 that deal with processing that causes distress.

As a Prudential customer, I have access to my details via my website. It actually says Miss on there, so they're clearly storing it correctly. What they are not doing is processing it correctly.

I can request that they make available to me the logic of said processing for a fee. They may resist on the grounds that it is a trade secret.

I believe I can ask them to change the processing provided they are allowed a reasonable timescale.

Amiy, it sounds like Somerfield are also guilty.

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**thedreadpersephone** · Advisor Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Posts: 913 Location: Dundee

I don't really understand why people are defending this. Why should you have to show a certificate just to have a couple of stupid letters before your name corrected? It's your damn name and if you can change your name whenever you want then why can't you change your title? If I got married and wanted to be known as Mrs, I don't believe for a second anyone would actually demand to see my marriage certificate first. In fact I often get letters addressed to Mrs Me anyway and I am clearly NOT married.

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Stella Maru · Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 2248 Location: Brighton

thedreadpersephone wrote:

I don't really understand why people are defending this.

I suspect that many trans people appear to assent to things which work against their better interest due to a kind of pervasive Stockholm syndrome, a social-psychological adaption sometimes seen in abducted hostages, in which the victim shows signs of loyalty to, and even approval of, their captors, irrespective of the damage and risk to which their abductors have exposed them.

**Flameboy** · Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject:

Well said, TDP! I'm surprised at the number of people who are basically saying that we should just put up and shut up when companies say that they can't change our title without a GRC. Reenie's not asking them to change the M to F, she's simply asking them to get her title correct - this should be a matter of common courtesy!

Stella Maru, your analogy with the Stockholm Syndrome is very interesting, and one that I'd never thought of before. It makes a lot of sense though!

Dave

**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

Prudential wrote:

I am unable to intervene with system generated correspondence.

Computer says no...

It's an all too familiar excuse, as if the computer is God and cannot be argued with.

I'm a computer programmer, so computer always says yes. When, through aging, it finally and understandably says no, I break it for spares.

Computer answers to system administrator who answers to IT manager who answers to finance director who answers to chief executive.

If the Head of Complaints has no remit to intervene in the administration of their computer system (which would be surprising) then a letter to the CEO it will have to be.

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**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

Reenie, in her blog wrote:

I spent some time looking for some reassurance from government websites and such-like about the legal significance of titles such as Mr, Miss, Ms and Mrs. Nothing. I just want to be absolutely sure before I challenge Prudential.

Today I've been emailing government departments to see if I can find anything enshrined in law that might give Prudential a let-off.

Only the Gender Recognition Panel came back. Strangely, they didn't know, my correspondent claiming that they were only familiar with the processing of applications for GRCs. They kindly pointed me at PFC.

Last night I contacted my old college in Cambridge. I have just received a reply from a lecturer in law to the effect that such titles as Mr, Mrs, Miss, etc. have "no binding legal status". She wished me well and asked that I let her know how I got on...

That's good enough for me.

Prudential have dared to "fart in my general direction" and so have exposed their arse for a good hobnailed-booting.

Stand well back! I need a good run-up... Very Happy

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**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

Further communication from Cambridge concerned the Post Office. Had me thinking...

I have mail turning up addressed to Mr Bujman and Miss Bujman. What's the postie to think? Is my dad living with me, do I have a husband or is it my brother. Maybe my grandad...

What if I happen to be on benefits and the postie splits on me?

Suddenly it's not Reenie being overly sensitive. An investigation by the benefit fraud wallahs is not likely to be fun.

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**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

0315hrs HMS Herbie has safely recovered his two ex-Aeronavale Super Etendards.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j64/bujman/share_it/06AUG/Etendard01.jpg

Minus exocets...

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**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

Naval intelligence reports...

22 October 2007

Dear Miss Bujman

Thank you for your letter of 17 October 2007 addressed to Mr Mark Tucker, who has asked me to acknowledge receipt on his behalf.

The chief executive is very sorry to learn of the problems you are experiencing. The issue you have raised is being investigated and a reply will be sent once this has been completed.

For your information, I enclose a copy of a leaflet detailing the process for dealing with your concerns.

In the meantime, if you would like to discuss the matter further, please contact me on my direct line... {phone number}

Tim Wilson
Head of Group Customer Relations.

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