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The Discrimination Law Review - Important Please Read
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Rob
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 194
Location: Edinburgh, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's pretty easy, really.

If you still have a penis and testicles and are not taking hormones, you cannot compete in women's sports.

If you don't, and you are taking female hormones, then you can.

Not really that difficult.

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Stella Maru



Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 2248
Location: Brighton

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob wrote:
I think it's pretty easy, really.

If you still have a penis and testicles and are not taking hormones, you cannot compete in women's sports.

If you don't, and you are taking female hormones, then you can.

Not really that difficult.


But historically athletes have not always conformed to your simplistic notion.

For example, Stella Walsh, (1911-1980) the Olympic sprinter was discovered to "still have a penis and testicles" during her autopsy in 1980. Walsh competed in the 1936 Olympics in Berlin , where, paraodixically, her supporters claimed that her main rival Helen Stephens was a man, as a resault of which Stephens was subject to what was then called the "peek and poke" test (a crude genital examination) to establish that she was "female" whilst Walsh herself escaped intimate scrutiny until her death.

The German high jumper Dora Ratjen, who came fourth in the 1936 Berlin Games, claimed after the war to be one Herman Ratjen, who said he had been forced by Nazi athletics authorities to have competed as a woman.

More examples of both wilful deception and unintended ambiguity occur with each succeeding decade.

The simplistic notion of what constitutes gender presented by some of the contributors to this thread are the very stuff upon which transphobia and the alienation of trans folk has been constructed.

One contributor even appears to place a burden of proof on competitors to show whether or not they have been taking contra-endocrine hormones!
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Rob
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not about a simplistic idea of gender, actually. It's about unfair advantages. I suppose we could just legalise steroids to have an even playing field, but then, what's the point? An even playing field offers skill. An uneven one could result in significant upsets to the sport.

I'm ambiguous myself, being intersexed, so the idea that I have a 'simplistic' view of gender is really kind of amusing. Of course, you've pretty much decided I'm Uncle Tom in this, and so I must have a 'simplistic' view, rather than believing that testosterone could give an MTF an unfair advantage.

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thedreadpersephone
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Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 913
Location: Dundee

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob wrote:
I think it's pretty easy, really.

If you still have a penis and testicles and are not taking hormones, you cannot compete in women's sports.

If you don't, and you are taking female hormones, then you can.

Not really that difficult.


Forgive me if I haven't read the thing properly, but I don't see any mention of hormones. To me it seems to be saying that they can discrimate against you on basis of 'gender reassignment', which could surely mean you're on hormones already?

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chrissy



Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Sunny Bognor

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point was quite straightforward. It is not a question of whether some people WILL have an 'unfair' competitive advantage, as clearly SOME will (although this may have little or nothing to do with gender or gender reassignment). My concern is with how this advantage will be judged, and by whom. It is clear from the proposal document that if someone excels at a particular sport, AND is 'gender reassigned', there are grounds PURELY ON THE BASIS OF REASSIGNMENT to ban them from competing. There is NO mention of hormones, surgery, or cross-dressers. Reassignment is the ONLY criterion mentioned, and by the current definition could equally apply to CD, non-op, recently post-op, long term post-op, or inter people, as long as they have sought or recieved, voluntarily or involuntarily, some form of 'treatment'.

This also appears to weaken the Gender Recognition process, are people with GRC's to be outed and be put off competing? I am legally 'female', and if I wasn't an out GenderQueer I would certainly be put off entering competitions on these grounds. And remember, I can get a GRC without surgery OR hormones, so if GRC's are immune from this issue this exception is doubly meaningless.

Sports is ALL ABOUT biological advantage (otherwise we'd all come first Very Happy ). Consider for example two woman-born-women high jumpers. One is six feet tall and one is four feet six. Clearly the taller one will have a biological advantage, being able to jump higher. This is considered fair, the tall woman has a biological advantage, which is WHY she is a winner. Her gender is not the deciding factor in this situation and it is likely she could also beat a short male-born-man (and she could certainly beat me, I'm pants at jumping). But what if the six footer is a ten year post op TS woman who transitioned at an early age? Suddenly this height could be seen as an unfair advantage, and purely on the basis of reassignment, as defined above, this athlete COULD be be barred from competing.

Athletes are competitive and many will use ANY advantage to win (including untraceable steriods - hormones, not that any do of course). If the shorter high jumper is competing against the woman-born-woman, she has to deal with it. If she is competing against the M-F she doesn't and could appeal. If the deciding body are transphobic, (not that anyone is nowadays,) we can guess what their decision might be. And given the current IOC issue with gender testing, and the upcoming London Olympics, the IOC could easily be in a position of having to enforce a law THEY ALREADY KNOW is meaningless and unenforcable.

Those who know me know that I don't support the two-gender system, I believe it is based on bogus and discredited 'science' and is primarily a social construction. There is some basis for this belief. All people have a phallus, in some it is called a penis, and in others it is called a clitoris. Which it is called depends on a value judgement, there is an arbitrary cut-off point, and I do mean cut off. Several of my inter colleagues feel particularly strongly about this small point. Hormones are no absolute guide to gender, as many people are unresponsive to their 'gendered' hormone and thus gain no advantage. Chromosomes can be mosaic, a mixture of XX and XY in the same body, they could test positive for XY yet have the musculature of an XX. A M-F may be far less competitive than a male-born-man, less driven, so despite having 'male' musculature be less able to win.

I understand the arguments that are being made, and on some levels I agree with them all; as they are framed they are absolutely correct. But I am an active sports person so I have some authority when I say sport isn't equal by definition, and I am CONCERNED when I see laws that will actively discriminate against SOME (but not all) trans and inter people making sport LESS equal. But I am still SHOCKED (and you'd think that after ten years of making these points I'd be used to it) when I hear and see trans and inter people arguing for support of these sort of discriminatory laws. It is not M-F trans people who are the problem, that is just more of the inadvertant scapegoating that trashes important political movements, the problem is the innappropriate use of the genders these laws seek to shore-up.

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