tzone

**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

Reenie wrote:

Until next Monday, then, it is "peace for our time..."

Maybe not. I have had a letter from Prudential this morning. Here it is:

Prudential wrote:

09 November 2007

Dear Miss Bujman

I am writing as promised following our telephone conversation on 5 November 2007. As I explained when we spoke, it is not our intention to cause any inconvenience or bad feeling over this matter.

As described in my earlier letters, our stance is consistent with the requirements of the Data Protection Act. You would expect prudential to operate in a compliant manner to the requirements of the Act and this has been the case to date.

At this stage, I am prepared to accept your Passport or Birth Certificate with your gender recorded as female. Upon presentation of either document, we will change our records accordingly. Otherwise, we will require the Gender Recognition Certificate to alter our records as explained previously.

In closing, I trust that my letter has been helpful and look forward to receiving the documentation requested. At this stage, should you remain unhappy, I must ask that you refer to the Financial Ombudsman Service, details of which have been previously supplied.

Your Sincerely

Tim Wilson
Head of Group Customer Relations

They are still defending their position...

Quote:

In closing...

...and I take it that Mr Wilson considers his word to be final.

I doubt that the ombudsman has teeth with which to bite Prudential. I know what I have to do...

Quote:

I am prepared to accept your Passport...

Really? If he is prepared to record my legal gender as female on presentation of my passport then he is in more trouble. I can obtain a passport that declares me female by sending the passport office a letter from my psychiatrist. I do not need a GRC for this.

He is therefore prepared to change my legal gender without my having obtained a GRC.

If I accept this offer, we would surely be conspiring to commit an act of fraud, would we not?

This further misunderstanding of the law is characteristic of the dealings I have had with Prudential.

The time for talking is over and to war I must go.

_________________
The Daily Turnout - King of the Throne Room

smilingirl · Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 15 Location: uk

Go spend the £5 at a solicitors to get a Statutory Declaration of name change. There is no law to say you cannot choose to call yourself the opposite gender so write to the CHAIRMAN of the company (the buck stops on his/her desk) and tell him/her to sort out the mess.
I have found over many years that when some underling is acting stupid you have to go right to the top.

**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

Hello smilingirl, welcome to tzone. Smile

Prudential wrote:

Thank you for your letter of 17 October 2007 addressed to Mr Mark Tucker, who has asked me to acknowledge receipt on his behalf.

The chief executive is very sorry to learn of the problems you are experiencing. The issue you have raised is being investigated and a reply will be sent once this has been completed.

I presented my deed poll on change of name last year. Grannie Reenie knows how to suck eggs, so she does.... Wink

_________________
The Daily Turnout - King of the Throne Room

Emma Ephemera · Joined: 27 Oct 2007 Posts: 109

I don't understand. They seem to have changed your title, which is to be expected.

However, they've not yet changed your gender. Considering that it affects how and when your pension is paid out, I would consider it only prudent for them to ask for proof, such as a birth certificate. Of course, the issue of the 'F' on your passport is not relevant.

**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

Emma Ephemera wrote:

I don't understand. They seem to have changed your title, which is to be expected.

They have addressed recent corresponence to Miss Bujman, however, anything generated by their computer system will still come addressed to Mr Bujman.

_________________
The Daily Turnout - King of the Throne Room

**thedreadpersephone** · Advisor Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Posts: 913 Location: Dundee

If he's willing to accept your passport now I'd say that was an improvement, although of course he is still wrong and is now contradicting himself.

_________________
Check out the Tzone team bios (including mine!) at: http://www.transgenderzone.com/bio.htm

Supporting the family, friends and partners of trans people in the UK: http://www.depend.org.uk/support.html
If you are struggling we will support you
If you are celebrating we will join you

Han79 · Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 365 Location: West Midlands - UK

Sounds like he doesn't have a clue how to do his job, why is everyone in the country under trained and full of s**t?

_________________
Most of the time, most people do what most people do most of the time.

**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

Han79 wrote:

...why is everyone in the country under trained and full of s**t?

Because we send them out into the world with a sheaf of "A-levels", all A-grades, all meaningless. This makes them think they're perfect.

I have four A-grades at A-level from when it meant something. I may as well put them through the shredder. Particularly as they're now in the wrong name and no doubt I'd have a battle with the examination board were I to ask them to change them.

_________________
The Daily Turnout - King of the Throne Room

CheekyCat · Joined: 20 Aug 2007 Posts: 458 Location: UK

In the first instance, this would probably be a case for the Information Commissioners Office rather than the Financila Ombudsman.

_________________
Cheeky Cat!

**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

I had a quick look at the ICO's website and the impression that I formed was that they may not have the teeth to bite Prudential should the latter stand firm.

It's not really a financial matter and I doubt the ombudsman has sufficient clout either.

I've asked both for guidance nonetheless. I presume that Prudential will assume that I will become further bogged down with these two.

I've looked at the FSA, the regulatory body to which all financial institutions are answerable only to find that they won't handle individual complaints from members of the public. It won't harm to ask.

In my initial approach to the CEO of Prudential, I did not mark the letter "Private and Confidential" and left the door open for reasonable discussion. I expected him to delegate the matter to a deputy which indeed he has done. The deputy has been found wanting, however...

I could write to him again, this time boxing him in so that he has to comply or face some form of action which he cannot win. A check-mate situation, so to speak.

There is Her Majesty's Court Service, whose clerks can be quite obliging when their advice is sought, so I'm told...

Trading Standards are often so busy that it's pot luck whether you can get them to pursue your case. Prudential's conduct falls within their purview, I will submit.

I have considered obtaining an injunction to force them to comply with the requirements of the Data Protection Act 1998, however, it is not a simple matter to obtain such an injunction.

Injunctions are usually obtained to restrain someone from doing something, a relatively straightforward matter to put before a court.

An injunction that forces someone to carry out a course of action is not likely to be easy.

I could simply obtain an injunction to prevent them sending me correspondence addressed to "Mr", but this is no longer the objective.

They are acting unlawfully. Further, despite their protests that they mean no harm by their actions, they are causing distress nonetheless.

There is no law without enforcement and enforcement there shall be. I shall turn stones like Sisyphus until I find the key...

_________________
The Daily Turnout - King of the Throne Room

CheekyCat · Joined: 20 Aug 2007 Posts: 458 Location: UK

The issue of due process must be taken into account.

Go to the ICO first as they are the relevant complaints body for the Data Protection Act and would most certainly find in your favour, even if they lack the bite to enforce action. (Although I would be most surprised if the pru didn't respond to a direction from the ICO)

Then, if required, take it to the courts. If you go to the courts as the first response they would likely rule that it is a matter for the ICO and you'd be back at square one. Whereas if you go to the courts with a direction from the ICO, then you'd certainly win.

_________________
Cheeky Cat!

**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

Good point, CheekyCat.

If the long slow grind it must be, then so be it.

I once carried my camera equipment across the Himalayas to get a good shot of Everest. It was a considerable test of stamina, but I did it and since then, there have been no insurmountable problems. Just problems...

_________________
The Daily Turnout - King of the Throne Room

**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

thedreadpersephone wrote:

If he's willing to accept your passport now I'd say that was an improvement, although of course he is still wrong and is now contradicting himself.

I phoned Tim Wilson at Prudential to establish just what he means by:

Quote:

At this stage, I am prepared to accept your Passport...

It transpires that he is prepared to change my title but not my gender which implies that there is no restriction within their system forcing correspondence to male customers to be addressed to Mr, so maybe their system does comply with the Data Protection Act 1998.

I explained that a GRC was not necessary to obtain a passport proclaiming my gender as female and that I had a letter of passage that would allow me to apply for such.

He wasn't interested in the letter of passage.

I want to bang their heads together, but I believe this may be unlawful.

_________________
The Daily Turnout - King of the Throne Room

Stella Maru · Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 2248 Location: Brighton

Reenie wrote:

I explained that a GRC was not necessary to obtain a passport proclaiming my gender as female

This is only because, contrary to popular practice, and the pronouncements of ministers, a UK passport is not considered by the Home Office to be an absolute proof of identity.

The controversial national identity card scheme is claimed to redress this deficit.

**Reenie** · Reporter Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 3577 Location: Glasgow

I've had to put this to one side for the time being. I have an impending house move and I know my priorities.

Some interesting things have come to light during my investigations and, I believe warrant a thread of their own...

I'm sure there are pension companies who are thoroughly well behaved as there are organisations within other spheres of human endeavour that act equally as reprehensibly as Prudential.

I shall start a thread called Corporate Bullies.

_________________
The Daily Turnout - King of the Throne Room